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 Help Identify Tokheim/Gasboy dispenser?
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ParkFuel

5 Posts

Posted - 10/30/2012 :  15:30:16  Show Profile
Hello all, I'm trying to ID a Tokheim/Gasboy dispenser so we can effectively troubleshoot it... It's from a prior installation and they've been moved over to the new installation and are not pumping. We suspect the anti-siphon's are not opening, but its a remote project & all I have right now for the dispensers are the nameplate info:

Tokheim
mod 7553CSS
ser 000053-T
power operated dispensing device for flamable liquids
WO: H506054

I'm trying to elminate various potential issues that could be the source of the problem, but starting with ID'ing what exactly we have for dispensers seems like a good start.

Once I get that, can someone point me at how/where I'd get a service manual or O&M info? Tokheim/Gasboy corporates were NOT helpful.

Thanks!

whittingtonm

USA
1245 Posts

Posted - 10/30/2012 :  15:48:55  Show Profile  Visit whittingtonm's Homepage
Parkfuel, This is connected to an aboveground tank?
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ParkFuel

5 Posts

Posted - 10/30/2012 :  15:55:42  Show Profile
Basic installation is as follows:

new AST, 1-1/4" diptube to 2" from bottom, reduces to 1" line, ball valve & OPW199ASV Anti-siphon on tank, then piped to dispenser & all its valves....
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bigbadjohn

Canada
2339 Posts

Posted - 10/30/2012 :  16:12:16  Show Profile  Visit bigbadjohn's Homepage
I'll bet there's a plug in the top of the air eliminator and the pump is stalled. Remove the plug and pipe it back to the tank. Or remove the plug until you get te lines purged then reinstall it and you'll be good til you run out of fuel.

Right behind pulley on top of pumping unit there's acover with about a dozen bolts in it, remove the plug in the center of that cover.

Red Green "If it moves and shouldn’t: duct tape. If it doesn’t move and should: WD-40."

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ParkFuel

5 Posts

Posted - 10/30/2012 :  16:36:17  Show Profile
bigbadjohn - basically sounds like you are almost describing a priming problem? air can't get out, so pump just spins and nothing happens? It's a remote site, so I can't test this immediately, but will definitely do so when we get a service tech out with our staff. I'm familiar with pumps/hydraulics, but new to specifics of fuel systems. Thanks!

Just curious, does it change anything if the maintenance guys are telling me they were able to run it temporarily by "turning the anti-siphons" down - I just got word they had it running that way, and when adjusted back it stopped again. Really wishing I had some good photos of the system/dispenser with the cover off right now...
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bigbadjohn

Canada
2339 Posts

Posted - 10/31/2012 :  07:24:58  Show Profile  Visit bigbadjohn's Homepage
The air eliminator was designed to be vented to atmosphere. As designed it had a float and needle valve to keep liquid fuel from leaving the chamber through the vent. When used with above ground tanks the head pressure crushes the needle valve. Lazy techs install plugs instead of running a vent line back to the tank. When the line is dry there's an excess of air in the chamber that can't get out. As the air pressurizes it opens the bypass valve and the pump creates less vacuum and stalls. You need to get the air out of the air eliminator chamber.

Red Green "If it moves and shouldn’t: duct tape. If it doesn’t move and should: WD-40."

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hardworking

USA
581 Posts

Posted - 10/31/2012 :  07:26:09  Show Profile
Since they got it running by adjusting the anti-siphon valve, I'd say that's where you should look.

The problem with those type of valves is when the product level in the tank gets low, it takes more suction (negative pressure) to pump the fuel. You can have a situation where the pump will pump with the tank full of fuel and not pump very well when it's low.

I wonder what technique is being used to adjust the anti-siphon valve properly?

Actually, what is the proper way to adjust these valves? How does one know when it's adjusted properly?
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cantdrive55

892 Posts

Posted - 10/31/2012 :  10:41:11  Show Profile  Visit cantdrive55's Homepage
I thought you just installed the correct color spring...
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ParkFuel

5 Posts

Posted - 10/31/2012 :  11:05:10  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by hardworking


I wonder what technique is being used to adjust the anti-siphon valve properly?

Actually, what is the proper way to adjust these valves? How does one know when it's adjusted properly?


For the OPW model, you select from a range of opening heads when you buy it (mine are 10-15').

On the OPW, you CAN'T adjust it, which is part of my problem - by touching the anti-siphon it's no longer a compliant installation. Certain models have a swappable spring or you can tighten/loosen pressure on the spring via a nut to set opening head, where you'd set it for your exact head pressure to stop the siphon but not need too much suction to pull it open.

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whittingtonm

USA
1245 Posts

Posted - 10/31/2012 :  15:39:36  Show Profile  Visit whittingtonm's Homepage
I would love to see some of these points discussed in PEI RP200.
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hardworking

USA
581 Posts

Posted - 10/31/2012 :  19:14:58  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by ParkFuel
by "turning the anti-siphons" down - I just got word they had it running that way, and when adjusted back it stopped again.



This is confusing. Here you say the guys "turning the anti-siphons" got the pump working. What exactly is "turning the anti-siphons" mean since you posted later that these are not adjustable?

Did I miss something?
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ParkFuel

5 Posts

Posted - 10/31/2012 :  19:29:40  Show Profile
You can back the top nut/cover off (which decompresses the spring), and lowers opening pressure required. It also often means that there is no longer enough pressure to prevent siphoning...

This is not supported and specifically listed as prohibited by the manufacturer. So it can be done, but not without voiding any warranty and changing any code/UL compliance you had...

http://www.opwglobal.com/Libraries/Product_Downloads/199ASV_Installation_and_Maintenance_Instructions_-_H13422PA.sflb.ashx

I'm not sure about the ones that are meant to be field adjustable, as I've yet to see one.
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hardworking

USA
581 Posts

Posted - 11/01/2012 :  05:39:11  Show Profile
I wish I could see one up close. If you are backing the nut up on the cover and it does not cause an opening for a leak or air entering the piping system then it seems that it is made to be adjustable, but, I guess not based on the wording in the link you provided.

Still, how do you know that someone has not already "adjusted" it? Maybe it's been adjusted to a higher pressure? If you have an 8' diameter tank, you need less than 3 PSI of pressure from the spring. If someone has "adjusted" it, then getting it pack to the proper setting w/out test equipment would be nearly impossible.

When the guys in the field backed the nut up, did they check to see if it was all the way down? Is this a calibration nut that the factory adjusts to the proper range before shipping? If so, then you will need to test/adjust it again. But, now, have you voided the UL listing and any possible warranty by adjusting the nut in the field like you said has already been done?

You also didn't say whether or not there is a pressure/vacuum vent on the tank. If there is then you have additional work needed to be performed by the pump to overcome the vacuum rating of the vent. You might want to check the pressure/vacuum vent to make sure it opens easily under vacuum.

It would really be nice if there was an access point in the piping system where you could install a vacuum gauge so you can see how much vacuum is being developed by the pump. The only way to really "troubleshoot" this problem is by using gauges to determine exactly what/where the problem is. Anything else is just guessing and parts changing until you stumble across the problem. Often more than one thing gets changed at a time (sometimes unintentional) and in the end no one really knows what the problem was, and the frustration is so high that they accept what may be an incorrect assessment of what fixed the problem.
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hardworking

USA
581 Posts

Posted - 11/01/2012 :  05:51:34  Show Profile
OK, if you go here http://www.opwglobal.com/Product.aspx?pid=118

You can download a pdf of the catalog page. http://www.opwglobal.com/ProductModule/productpdf.axd?dl=1&productid=118

Reading through the information and looking at the drawing of the valve, I am of the opinion that the warranty has already been voided, and the valve is probably adjusted to a higher pressure than the pump can overcome and most likely higher than is necessary for the valve to work as designed.

If you don't want to accept responsibility for adjusting the valve, then you will need to order a replacement that fits the criteria of your installation.
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